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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s Not All About the Money: Legitimising youth literature</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/</link>
	<description>Flipping the bird at answers</description>
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		<title>By: tarot sms</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-163967</link>
		<dc:creator>tarot sms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-163967</guid>
		<description>Un amigo me dio la direccion de tu blog, y sin duda, no se ha equivocado, tienes informacion muy valiosa que hace tiempo estaba buscando.Te añadire a mis favoritos y volvere a visitarte pronto.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Un amigo me dio la direccion de tu blog, y sin duda, no se ha equivocado, tienes informacion muy valiosa que hace tiempo estaba buscando.Te añadire a mis favoritos y volvere a visitarte pronto.</p>
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		<title>By: here</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-163446</link>
		<dc:creator>here</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-163446</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Superb website...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...]always a big fan of linking to bloggers that I love but don’t get a lot of link love from[...]…...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Superb website&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...]always a big fan of linking to bloggers that I love but don’t get a lot of link love from[...]…&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Blogging for free &#171; avocado and lemon</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogging for free &#171; avocado and lemon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-31</guid>
		<description>[...] Dempster, Ryan Paine, Benjamin Solah, and Extra Pulp have all been part of the discussion, as has Alec Patric on the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dempster, Ryan Paine, Benjamin Solah, and Extra Pulp have all been part of the discussion, as has Alec Patric on the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Soph</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Soph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 05:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-17</guid>
		<description>Firstly, thanks for the reminder with this one. I saw it come through on the Express Media email and had completely forgotten about it. Now I might just remember to actually apply...

As for the debate about unpaid work, I always try to look at it like this: one can be &#039;paid&#039; in many different ways for work, it doesn&#039;t always have to be financial reward, so if I&#039;m not receiving any cold hard cash for something that I&#039;m doing, I won&#039;t do it unless I&#039;m being paid in some other way. As you mentioned, unpaid work can be a legitimate way of learning and developing, not to mention making contacts, all of which, to me at least, is some form of payment. 

My brother, who&#039;s doing an environmental science degree, often talks about the hidden costs of certain industrial (or whatever -- he&#039;s got the enviro jargon but I don&#039;t remember it) practices, and how we as a society can end up spending far more than we were able to calculate just looking at the financial cost. While that&#039;s definitely a debate that should probably occur elsewhere at this point, I think the principle is the same.

I, like you, &quot;would rather see a million young writers working for free than a handful of writers dominating the industry because the market found a way to pay for their time.&quot; That said, it&#039;s obviously important that financial payment isn&#039;t withheld to the point where young writers can&#039;t actually eat or pay their rent. A difficult balance to get right, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly, thanks for the reminder with this one. I saw it come through on the Express Media email and had completely forgotten about it. Now I might just remember to actually apply&#8230;</p>
<p>As for the debate about unpaid work, I always try to look at it like this: one can be &#8216;paid&#8217; in many different ways for work, it doesn&#8217;t always have to be financial reward, so if I&#8217;m not receiving any cold hard cash for something that I&#8217;m doing, I won&#8217;t do it unless I&#8217;m being paid in some other way. As you mentioned, unpaid work can be a legitimate way of learning and developing, not to mention making contacts, all of which, to me at least, is some form of payment. </p>
<p>My brother, who&#8217;s doing an environmental science degree, often talks about the hidden costs of certain industrial (or whatever &#8212; he&#8217;s got the enviro jargon but I don&#8217;t remember it) practices, and how we as a society can end up spending far more than we were able to calculate just looking at the financial cost. While that&#8217;s definitely a debate that should probably occur elsewhere at this point, I think the principle is the same.</p>
<p>I, like you, &#8220;would rather see a million young writers working for free than a handful of writers dominating the industry because the market found a way to pay for their time.&#8221; That said, it&#8217;s obviously important that financial payment isn&#8217;t withheld to the point where young writers can&#8217;t actually eat or pay their rent. A difficult balance to get right, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Solah, Marxist Horror Writer &#187; Writers, Pay and Blogging: Should Writers Write for Free?</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Solah, Marxist Horror Writer &#187; Writers, Pay and Blogging: Should Writers Write for Free?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 04:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-9</guid>
		<description>[...] Ryan Paine and Elena posted replies to the issue. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ryan Paine and Elena posted replies to the issue. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: With Extra Pulp &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8216;Sif you&#8217;d get paid for blogging</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>With Extra Pulp &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8216;Sif you&#8217;d get paid for blogging</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-8</guid>
		<description>[...] further discussion over at Ryan Paine&#8217;s blog, it became clear that there are two different issues, as Lisa pointed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] further discussion over at Ryan Paine&#8217;s blog, it became clear that there are two different issues, as Lisa pointed [...]</p>
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		<title>By: My Two Cents</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>My Two Cents</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 06:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-7</guid>
		<description>I think another problem is writer expectations. I&#039;ve been interning for a fairly well known media organisation and getting paid for some of my articles there - both on the web and in print. Prior to this, I&#039;d been writing for and editing various websites and publications for years, much of it was unpaid. 

Other interns, after seeing my bylines, then wanted to get their own pieces published, however, their quality of writing wasn&#039;t good enough. (I&#039;m not being arrogant, by the way.) I encouraged them to apply for unpaid writing gigs, which would give them a chance to find an audience, develop a voice, learn how to write well, etc. They haven&#039;t followed up on this - I think because there&#039;s less prestige involved. Instead, they send me e-mails asking for advice on how to pitch for the larger known publications, but without a writing history to back them up.

I agree with the argument that people have to start somewhere, and often they will be unpaid. But I&#039;ve found that the more you write, and the more you prove that you write well and can meet deadlines, this will lead to paid writing in the future. The writer-editor relationship is crucial and editors want to work with people they know are reliable.

I think that if the publisher has the commercial funds to do so, then yes, they should pay for content - but only if the quality of writing is good enough. Not all publishers have the capacity, and I feel like if they don&#039;t have the money, then they should offer professional contacts and an awesome mentoring process in return.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think another problem is writer expectations. I&#8217;ve been interning for a fairly well known media organisation and getting paid for some of my articles there &#8211; both on the web and in print. Prior to this, I&#8217;d been writing for and editing various websites and publications for years, much of it was unpaid. </p>
<p>Other interns, after seeing my bylines, then wanted to get their own pieces published, however, their quality of writing wasn&#8217;t good enough. (I&#8217;m not being arrogant, by the way.) I encouraged them to apply for unpaid writing gigs, which would give them a chance to find an audience, develop a voice, learn how to write well, etc. They haven&#8217;t followed up on this &#8211; I think because there&#8217;s less prestige involved. Instead, they send me e-mails asking for advice on how to pitch for the larger known publications, but without a writing history to back them up.</p>
<p>I agree with the argument that people have to start somewhere, and often they will be unpaid. But I&#8217;ve found that the more you write, and the more you prove that you write well and can meet deadlines, this will lead to paid writing in the future. The writer-editor relationship is crucial and editors want to work with people they know are reliable.</p>
<p>I think that if the publisher has the commercial funds to do so, then yes, they should pay for content &#8211; but only if the quality of writing is good enough. Not all publishers have the capacity, and I feel like if they don&#8217;t have the money, then they should offer professional contacts and an awesome mentoring process in return.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Solah</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-6</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Solah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 02:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-6</guid>
		<description>I agree with Lisa on the separation between the two debates.

I will apply because only I will miss out on this opportunity, and not actually change much like force writers to be paid in the future.

I think things should be valued in other ways than being paid, but there is an economic reason why I think writers should be paid, rather than just being a sign of legitimacy.

I would love to earn enough from writing to not have to work another boring dull, time-sucking job, to have more time to write.

I think arts in general is undervalued because we live in a society where things are only seen valuable if they can make copious amounts of money. And it&#039;s hard to survive economically if you&#039;re doing something that doesn&#039;t fulfill that &#039;need.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Lisa on the separation between the two debates.</p>
<p>I will apply because only I will miss out on this opportunity, and not actually change much like force writers to be paid in the future.</p>
<p>I think things should be valued in other ways than being paid, but there is an economic reason why I think writers should be paid, rather than just being a sign of legitimacy.</p>
<p>I would love to earn enough from writing to not have to work another boring dull, time-sucking job, to have more time to write.</p>
<p>I think arts in general is undervalued because we live in a society where things are only seen valuable if they can make copious amounts of money. And it&#8217;s hard to survive economically if you&#8217;re doing something that doesn&#8217;t fulfill that &#8216;need.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Elena</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>Elena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-5</guid>
		<description>Oh, Just read Lisa&#039;s response. You&#039;re right, two different issues. I might tackle this in more depth as well. So many different ideas, and that&#039;s just in my head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, Just read Lisa&#8217;s response. You&#8217;re right, two different issues. I might tackle this in more depth as well. So many different ideas, and that&#8217;s just in my head.</p>
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		<title>By: Elena</title>
		<link>http://ryan-paine.com/2009/12/16/its-not-all-about-the-money-legitimising-youth-literature/comment-page-1/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Elena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryan-paine.com/?p=578#comment-4</guid>
		<description>I wanna get paid to write reviews! One day...

But in the mean time, I do love it, and I&#039;m don&#039;t mind writing for free for now. When I was studying journalism in uni we&#039;d get people coming in every week offering us unpaid work experience, it was only really worth doing if it was a well known media company.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wanna get paid to write reviews! One day&#8230;</p>
<p>But in the mean time, I do love it, and I&#8217;m don&#8217;t mind writing for free for now. When I was studying journalism in uni we&#8217;d get people coming in every week offering us unpaid work experience, it was only really worth doing if it was a well known media company.</p>
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